Sunday, October 17, 2010
Response #1: Blasphemer Punished
Alas, RTP&GGrs, ToeJamm's rant against The Bible has earned him his just desserts. God has punished the wicked heretic, who dared to question the infallibility of the most important book written in the history of man (with the possible exception of Lord of the Rings). The Inquisitor claimed on The Bible that ToeJamm dared to listen to the addled rantings of an apostate Jew, who already was a traitor to his own religion and now wished to corrupt Christians in theirs.
His penance shall be to recite the Nicene Creed to the tune of Led Zeppelin's Black Dog:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVHMrO-z0Og&ob=av2n
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I have "Black Dog" on my I-pod, but I think it is an odd dichotomy between the Nicene Creed, an important statement of faith for the Christian church, and Led Zeppelin, who is from my knowledge associated with the occult, I saw a show about them on the Biography channel. A good brainwashing will cure anyone that dares to go against the status quo.
ReplyDeleteI have questions about the Nicene Creed. I covered it briefly in my African world history class and I haven't looked into it much, so I don't know much about it. I read that it was "an important state in the development of the state-church". I know the state or governments have used religion to serve their own purposes and that religion is one of the so called "four hidden dynasties" mentioned in the Bible that are used to control/deceive people. It was where they set the date for Christmas and Easter. Easter is a pagan holiday and I don't know why Christmas was chosen to be celebrated in December since it is obvious from scriptures that the birth of Christ did not occur at that time, I think it was fall and the accepted date was chosen because it coincided with a pagan holiday. I think the Council of Nicaea is a good example of how the Christian religion has been corrupted and used to serve other purposes, somewhat like the environmental movement has.
Other than that I don't really have anything clever to say at the moment.
You've mentioned that Christian holidays have been placed on the dates of Pagan holidays. Who cares? That means nothing. Its not like we are celebrating pagan Gods.
ReplyDeleteIf you think the religion has been so influenced by Pagan religions then do you agree with much of my original post on the Bible? It was largely based on pagan influence from Greek, Roman, and Persian culture.
Can you guys see the picture I posted? I don't see it now, though I saw it earlier in the day from work. Jeff's remarks tell me he can't see the picture.
ReplyDeleteRe: Easter - As I said before, Easter is celebrated where it's supposed to be, biblically, tied to Passover. It's just that in England-only, it adopted the name of an existing Goddess and probable holiday.
I can't get the picture.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the difference between eucharist, communion, and sacraments?
Check it now. I wonder why it disappeared.
ReplyDeleteHahahaha! Why pick on me? I was just raising questions that needed answering.
ReplyDeleteCommunion is one of the four Sacraments (at least in Lutheranism as the Missouri Synod practices it):
ReplyDeleteBaptism
Confession
Communion
Absolution
The Eucharist is the same thing as Communion
I bet you've been so excited for the moment when you could put all your new fancy computer toys to the test.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm no expert at Paint, but that's what I was using. Luckily, the black and white drawing hid the fact that I couldn't get your head to embed properly.
ReplyDeleteOn the pagan holiday issue: it should be a big deal to anyone that claims to be a Christian. More than the dates have entered into the Christian holiday. In Easter, the bunny and Easter egg hunts and sunrise services have become part of the supposed Christian holiday. The very name of Easter as used in the Bible itself is an obvious mistranslation. Easter has its origins in the OT pagan god of Isthar, Asherah and Tammuz. It is mentioned in Eze: 8, although you have to check out what the names in verse eight mean and put the whole chapter and book in context. If that does not matter to you as a Christian or if you believe it to be of no concern, then that is that is your choice. But at least be real and honest about what it is and I think it should be a big deal to a Christian as it is celebrating pagan gods. It is like you celebrating your wife's birthday and when you sing happy birthday you put your ex's name or the name of the woman you cheated on your wife with, both of whom your wife is aware of, and you do a favorite activity that the others liked but not your wife.
ReplyDeleteToejamm, how do we know that all of these other religions were not influenced by some earlier religion or some other primitive truth before writing that we don't know of. I have read books point to the similiarity of all religions and their common themes etc. Also the argument could be confusing correlation and causation: an ex would a rain man does a rain dance and it rains the next day, therefor it rained because of the rain man's dance. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I am in the process of studying the subject to include your points. But I do think there are a lot of pagan practices and elements that have crept into Christianity and Christianity today is far from its foundation.
The picture is very befitting for Toejamm.
Jeff,what you're saying is just flat out wrong regarding the word 'Easter' and it's useage in Christian England. It's got nothing to do with the Old Testament paganism. And as I've said before, Easter is only called Easter in the 'Anglosphere'. From Wikipedia (though I don't need Wikipedia to tell me this):
ReplyDeleteThe modern English term Easter developed from the Old English word Ēastre or Ēostre (IPA: [ˈæːɑstre, ˈeːostre]), which itself developed prior to 899. The name refers to Eostur-monath, a month of the Germanic calendar attested by Bede, who writes that the month is named after the goddess Ēostre of Anglo-Saxon paganism.[6] Bede notes that Ēostur-monath was the equivalent to the month of April, yet that feasts held in her honor during Ēostur-monath had died out by the time of his writing and had been replaced with the Christian custom of "Paschal season".
FYI, Wikipedia says the word developed prior to 899. That's an understatement. It developed prior to the early 700s, when Bede was writing. I'll bet much prior.
ReplyDeleteI did a speech on Easter and I can back up what I said with sources as I will do.
ReplyDelete(Note I compared the wiki to the encyclopedia Britannica articles to compare information. The Easter article agrees with Bud-D.) I would have to do a long post to fully cover this topic. After checking out the various goddess and connecting the dots and seeing where it leads, if you still don't see the connection then ok--I think it is very clear. Where did the Easter bunny and Easter egg hunts come from? How is that related to Christianity? These elements came from spring fertility festivals that can be traced all the way back to the gods of the OT and that time period whose worship included sexual heathen practices in groves that involved phallic symbols, or in the OT Asherah see the link below. The bunny is symbol for fertility because of its rapid reproduction, think Playboy bunnies. The Greek word that is translated into English as Easter means Passover and has nothing to do with Eostre. Passover was observed by early Christians and was replaced by Constantine at Nicea because passover was "too Jewish". I don't see how Easter is related to Christianity? It is a straight up pagan holiday spoken of in Eze chap 8. In a negative way. Note in verse 11 that Jaazaniah means heard of Jah and Shaphan means rabbit. Also check out Tammuz who is associated with Ishtar below.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of what you say but you don't go far enough back. Where did Eostre come from? What were the practices associated with it? The same practices are associated with Isthar or the Ashtoreth and the Queen of Heaven of the OT and the very name and the goddess come from the OT pagan goddess of the other religions in that region of the world at that time. The practices included grove worship and the worship of phallic symbols. A GOOD PAGE to read would be this by Bullinger http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app42.html
Ashtoreth is explicitly mentioned in the OT, 1 King 11:5 being one place, and according to the Strong's concordance means also 'Ishtar' of Assyria and 'Astarte' by the Greeks and Romans. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6253&t=KJV
You can trace it using Wikipedia to Eostre who means the shinning one and is "Ēostre derives from Proto-Germanic *austrō, ultimately from a PIE root *au̯es-, 'to shine' and closely related to a conjectural name of Hausos, the dawn goddess, *h2ausōs, which would account for Greek Eos, Roman Aurora[Venus] and Indian Ushas.[1]". Click on the link in the wiki article of Eostre to the dawn goddess Hausos/Ausōs. Now keeping in mind that Isthar = Ashtoreth of the OT, using the Strong's. In the wiki article on Ishtar "Ishtar is a goddess of fertility, love, war, and sex.[1] In the Babylonian pantheon, she 'was the divine personification of the planet Venus'". In the wiki article on Venus, "Due to her early association with Aphrodite in the interpretatio graeca, it is difficult to establish what characteristics the natively Italic Venus may have had. But like Aphrodite, Venus appears to be a hypostasis of the Indo-European dawn goddess." Ashtoreth=Ishtar=Venus=,possibly, the Indo-European dawn goddess=Eostre.
This is only one little/not 100% connection. Again, research the usage of these goddess in the OT and research Ishtar/Eostre/Venus/etc. They all come from the same goddess and have similar practices. Is there 100% proof that is accepted by scholars of a link between the OT goddess of Ashtoreth and Easter? No. Are the practices and the various goddess alike and similar? Yes. So why would the practices of the OT goddess be condemned and who practices are very similar to Eostre and the goddess Eostre not be? What does a pagan spring fertility goddess have to do with Christ's death and resurrection?
(Also note the similiarties of all of these goddess. I read a book stating that they were an attempt to make Eve a goddess by Babylonia priest in the attempt to parody some original/ancient truth.)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6253&t=KJV
ReplyDeleteNote in the "Gesenius's Lexicon", "I have no doubt that the name itself[Ashtoreth], the origin of which was long a matter of inquiry, is the same as the syriac [Hebrew charcters] star; specially the planet Venus, the goddess of love and fortune..."
This is a further link between the Ashtoreth of the OT and the Venus/Ishtar goddess who has possible links to Eostre and the Dawn goddess. The planet Venus was named after the Roman goddess of the same name. The planet is know as the morning and evening star. Again not a 100% link I will admit, but enough for me.
Your tradition reason's are superfluous. Who cares about the eggs? Who cares about the name? I've never been to any church or had any church service contain the "fun and happy Easter Bunny traditions" within the message. It is always celebrating the resurrection. If anything, using those Pagan names and dates help to wash out pagan holidays. The Christian message has not been altered. At least not at Redeemer Lutheran.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are telling me ToeJammm is that you have not read what I wrote. I know it is a bit much and is hard to follow and takes time, not being facitious. Easter comes straight from the pagan goddess ashtoreth of the OT that is spoken out against in it. It is a straight up corruption. Like the environmental movement has been by communist. It is the other way around: the pagan holiday helps to wash out the Christian Passover. At least have the balls the admit that.
ReplyDeleteI'm not trying to discredit your argument or say it is wrong. I'm trying to say that it doesn't matter. As long as when I pray and when I go to church my ONLY focus is on celebrating the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then I'm fine. The bunny rabbits, Santa Clauses, candy coins, fireworks, etc are for the birds. My relationship with God is a personal one and he knows my heart and everyone else's. If I call the holiday a Pagan name I think he can and will look past it. Especially since I don't really care what the name is and don't really know either.
ReplyDeleteGood points ToeJamm.
ReplyDeleteA couple of things
1) Regarding holidays, the ONLY direction we are given from Jesus is to "Honor the Sabbath and keep it Holy". What day the Sabbath is, is open to interpretation between the different denominations of Christianity. Other holidays, including His resurrection and His birthday, are not remarked upon by Him. So, what we choose to do is our own choice, and not constrained by the Bible. There is some Greek term for it meaning, basically not encouraged or forbidden, open to interpretation, but I forget what the term is.
I agree with ToeJamm, what we name it (and, for about the third time, it is named something akin to Paschal in almost all the other languages; only in English is it called Easter)is not important to Jesus, at least not in anything the Scriptures say. Whatever cultural additions made to it are irrelevent, so long as they don't consitute worshipping another God. You could say, and you probably are saying "well, calling it Easter pretty much sounds like that", but since there is no mention of worshipping a female fertility goddess in any Christian observance of Easter that I know of, I'd say it's more what I said it was in the beginning, and what Christians have always said: A way the early Christian missionaries usurped an existing ENGLISH holiday into a Christian one. And, also for the third time, Easter is tied directly to Passover, and so can't possibly be exactly when the Anglo-Saxons observed Easter. The Easter bunny and Easter eggs are irrelevencies, even if there is some remote relationship to some remote heathen observance!
2) Regarding Jeff's discussion of the origin of Easter, I'll respond later today.
I am not trying to judge anyone' relationship to God. My family observes Easter. And I do think the OT makes it clear that Ashtoreth and the similar goddess Easter who has very close ties to Ashtoreth are clearly Spoken against in the OT. And Eze 8:11 and the whole chap makes that clear. I do believe that Passover was mentioned to be kept, today minus sacrifices., in Ex 12. although I am not very knowledgable on the subject. Also in 1Chron 5:7. The Easter bunny and eggs are tied to pagan religions going back to Babylon and don't have a place in the Highest day of Christianity.
ReplyDeleteLikewise, Jeff. And I apologize if I sound a little too harsh, it's not intended to be that at all, and respect your observance of holidays or lack of observance if that be the case.
ReplyDeleteFertility goddesses are known throughout humanity, and they are invariably female, into distant prehistory. That the Semitic peoples had a female fertility goddess is not surprising. Everybody had one. If you are saying that the Bible is speaking out against fertility goddesses, fine, I don't have a problem with that. But, it is a very long stretch to say that a Germanic fertility goddess, still worshipped into the early centuries AD, whose name ultimately is derived from the Indo-European word for East (or dawn) is closely linked to a Semitic word that is referred to in the Old Testament is an incredibly long, hard stretch. The words or roots of words that transfer between the major different language groups (in this case Indo-European and Semitic)are very very few, to the point that I find it impossible to believe it is the case here.
What I think you have here is largely a coincidence. I think it is similar to saying that since both a bee and a hummingbird can hover in the air and stick long tubes into flowers to suck up nectar, they are therefore closely related animals.
Wikipedia has a good writeup on the history of Easter eggs, which backs up what you say about them. However, they have been a thoroughly Christian tradition for centuries, at least.
I read in my library "The Oxford Companion To World Mythology" and it backed up what the wikipedia articles stated, although it had nothing on Eostre or much on the Indo-European dawn goddess. The link between these goddess are made using comparative mythology, a method I am not knowledgeable on. I will admit that it is a strech to link Eostre all the way back to Ashtoreth/Isthar/Venus/the Indo-European Dawn goddess/ by ONLY tying their names together, but that is not the only/main link between them and Eostre, whose existence is not 100% accepted, and the Ashtoreth of the Bible. Most cultures do have a female fertitilty goddess and the ones spoken about here are associated with the planet Venus, know as the morning and evening star, and they all are associated with fertility, they all have similar customs associated with them, grove worship where sexual/phallic observances took place, and they all have a similar function. This is the main link between them. From what I have read the link between the Ashtoreth of the OT and Ishtar/Astarte and Aphrodite and Venus are fairly solid and accepted in the above book.
ReplyDeleteEven if there is no linguistic link between Eostre and Ashtoreth or if the Indo-European dawn goddess/Eostre developed completely independent of Venus/Ashtoreth or if these similitarties are coincidences, why would would Eostre be accepted as being associated with the Christain passover to the point of replacing the name Passover when Eostre has similar practices associated with Ashtoreth which both are associtated with the morning star and Ashtoreth/grove worship be condemned and Eostre/Easter be accepted?
And I do think the some of the practices of Easter are mentioned in a very round about way in Eze 8,
ReplyDelete"Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry. 6He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations. 7And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall. 8Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door. 9And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. 10So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about. 11And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah[heard of Jah or God] the son of Shaphan[the son of the rock rabbit denoting hiding], with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth. 13He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. 14Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.[parallel consort or mate to Ishtar both associated with each other] 15Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.16And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.[sunrise Easter service]"
Overall, there is no 100% link showing that Eostre developed directly from the Ashtoreth of the OT but there are a lot of similitarites between these various goddess. I am not saying that when people observe Easter they are worshiping pagan deities or committing the same abominations that are associated with Ashtoreth of the OT, it is more out of lack of knowledge. But why would the highest day in Christianity name be replaced with a fertility goddess and elements--rabbits, eggs, sunrise worship services, eggs hunts in the groves--of this OT pagan worship find its way into the observance of Passover be accepted by Christians? It has no place in my opinion. And I think if you spend enough time researching the subject you will see the link between all of these goddess are not mere coincidences. And on a deeper level it has to do with cup of Babylonia and shows how all gods developed from a single source. The main point is to show how Christianity has been corrupted in many areas.
I believe your argument has been presented and answered a few times now. Read Bud-D's responses. There you will find the answers you seek young padawon.
ReplyDelete