Whether it be the Zoroastrian influence over the Jews during the exile(the style and image of God significantly changed from before the exile, if you don't believe it then read the Old Testament), contradictions in the narrative(one of many examples would be the number of soldiers the army in 1 Chronicles 21:5 and 2 Samuel 24:9), the changing of the new testament in order to compete with other religions(New Testament writers may have drawn their "Divine Man themes" of Jesus in order to compete with Greco-Roman Mystery Religions from the Hellenization of the Middle East), or the Elohist and Jahwist author's of the Torah having
God favor their respective region of Israel...the Bible seems too malleable to me. It is analogous of a political smear campaign. We bitch and moan on RTP's so much about nasty politics and the Bible seems up to par with it. Did you know there are over 30,000 protestant christian faiths? We can't even agree on the message. Its a puzzle. Whenever I discuss these matters with a Christian they always end up with, "well you just have to have faith."This tells me that there is no reason behind their beliefs.( 2nd definition of faith on dictionary.com is "belief that is not based on proof"). Why do we slam communists that still believe socialism is a good cause if all reason and proof are against it? They must be going on faith.
What I think that is undeniable is that there is a creator. We can see him in nature. We can see him through reason. But our religions are made by humans and inspired by humans. It seem is obvious.
Here are some quotes by Thomas Paine in his book The Age of Reason that inspired me "It has been my intention, for several years past, to publish my thoughts upon religion. . . . The circumstance that has now taken place in France of the total abolition of the whole national order of priesthood, and of everything appertaining to compulsive systems of religion, and compulsive articles of faith, has not only precipitated my intention, but rendered a work of this kind exceedingly necessary, lest in the general wreck of superstition, of false systems of government and false theology, we lose sight of morality, of humanity and of the theology that is true.""I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe."
Go ahead...kick me off the blog...I dare you...
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ReplyDeleteThe Elohist and Jahwist author's is not a legitimate argument. If you look at what these words mean you will see that they convey different relationships and offices between man and God. It is like you are a father, a son, a husband, and Special case in the Army, and etc. Elohim is the creator, Jehovah is God in covenant relation, and there are 8 different words used to convey different offices and relationships. God's relationship with people has changed as people have broken previous legal contracts and made necessary the need for a new one. I am sure the nature of your relationship has and will change between you and your son as he grows older. You will be more of a father and mentor as he is younger and more of a friend as he grows older. I don't understand the nature of this argument. So I view it as invalid and a false argument. I could be misunderstanding it.
ReplyDeleteThe Zoroastrian influence is another argument that I don't view as crediable. This is where the concept of a devil came from right? This concept does not appear until after the exile? There is the concept of the devil before this. Read Genesis and the very 1 st prophecy in the Bible concerning the serpent and the woman's seed. Who was the serpent in the garden? After the exile, the so called Jews that returned were composed vastly of the a race that God told Israel to destroy but who fooled Israel into making a covenant with them.
The fact is that man will never be able to fully understand God because he can not fully understand the nature of the universe(s) and reality. You do have to have faith in order to believe in God or any other way in which we came about. Science tells us there are different dimensions and levels of existence that we can not perceive. Man can not prove or disprove God's existence with science, google Godel's incompleteness theorem. Using your reason is simply not enough to fully understand the nature of reality. Thousands of years ago the Earth was considered or reasoned flat and the center of the universe. This is what man's reason stated. But when new means to observe nature and men exploring it this was later changed. Using solely reason is like a lower animal trying to understand humans. God's nature and the complete nature of the universe is unable to be understood by man at this time, we can not even perceive the other dimensions. The more I learn about math and science the more I believe in God.
On Jesus, Psalms 22 tells the exact manner in which Jesus died a thousand years before the fact and told the manner in which the non believers would act. This could be circular reasoning. A lot of the miracles in the Bible have been explained by natural events and thus have been proven to be correct. There was an ancient city that was discovered that fits the description of Sodom and Gomorrah and existed the same time that the Bible states that it did. It was also discovered that it was destroyed in the same manner in which the Bible says it was. The plagues of Egypt are all natural events including the parting of the Red Sea. The Bible as been proven to be historically accurate. This is what separates it from other religious texts.
I think studying the Bible is worth one's time as it is a great piece of literature at the least and God's word in my mind. I don't insist that people believe the same way I do. If two believed the exact same things and both thought alike, then there would be no need for one of them. I gave an uncoherent reply and could ramble on a lot longer. Study what the Bible actually says and compare this with history and science and you might change your mind.
(This comment should precede the comment above.) Your lack of faith and belief in the Bible is disturbing. You must come to the light. As long as you keep thinking for yourself you are better than most Christians.
ReplyDeleteNo but I do understand some of the questions that you have about the Bible. I had a good bit of questions and I saw a lot of contradictions like you do. I honestly don't know as much about the Bible as I do about politics and current events. I agree with you that religions are corrupted and are of man. The vast majority of religions, to include the vast majority of Christianity, do enslave people. But you also have to look at how Christianity made possible America by looking at the beliefs of the founding fathers and the people that 1st settled America, read "Democracy in America". A strong religious belief is the foundation of our society. Just because there are many different versions of Christianity does not discredit it. What is the accepted narrative by the majority of Christians on creation and the events in the garden? Not what the Bible actually says. There are many so called "Capitalist" countries that are actually not capitalist but are a mixed economic system. Can you discredit Capitalism by looking at these so called capitalist country's? The fact is that the Bible does say only one absolute thing. The problem is trying to fully understand it and to properly translate it. Our English version of the Bible is a translation of the original and has many errors. Read, if you can understand it, the translators of the King James version that they wrote to the reader in the very original version. Just because you don't fully understand the Bible does not mean that it is not true. I believe in reality. I respect the fact that you don't just blindly believe in something like a lot of people.
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ReplyDeleteBut when I actually started studying what the Bible actually said, a lot of those contradictions were made clear and they actually turned out to not be contradictions. Lets take the example you gave with the numbering of the army of Israel. If you read what the Bible says your "contradiction" will be done away with. These two books tell the account of the same events but from different perspectives. "In the Books of Samuel and Kings events are viewed from the human and exoteric standpoint, while in Chronicles the same events are viewed from the Divine and esoteric standpoint." pg 367 "The Companion Bible". It is like examining the same events in a novel from the perspective of two different characters. You are correct to point out there the numbering is different. That is a good observation. Or if you read it in a book, then the author did some sloppy scholarship. 1 Chron gives a larger number for Israel and a smaller one for Judah than 2 Sam but in 2 Sam there is a qualifier for both armies that was not present in 1 Chron to the men of Israel and to the men of Judah that were numbered, "And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the People unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand [Valiant] men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men" [not ones that drew the sword]. The note to 2 Sam 24:9 in my study Bible says this,"Israel=800,000 'valiant men'. Heb. Ish. Ap.14 II. [Cp. 1 Chron. 21.5, a different classification. Israel = 1,100,000, 'all they of Israel that drew sword': i.e. all adults, not necessarily 'valiant'. Judah=470,000 'men that drew sword'; not all the "men" by 30,000]." So in 2 Sam the number is smaller for Israel because it counted the VALIANT men and larger for Judah because it counts ALL men where as in 2 Chron for Judah it counts men that drew the sword, limits, and for Israel ALL men, not just Valiant men, that drew sword. Compare the two verses. It will be clear. This is very Pedantic. If this contradiction represents all of the other so called contradictions, then this discredits them. I think if you are going to judge what the Bible says or what any person says you should judge them based on what they actually said. I like The Companion" Bible by E.W. Bullinger as it is actually scholarly notes and not a commentary. The appenddixes are very good too. http://levendwater.org/companion/frameset.htm?index_companion.html&inhoudsopgave_companion.htm
ReplyDeleteThis 2 Sam and 1 Chron number problem is very annoying and hard to state. Read the things for your self and clarify it your self.
ReplyDeleteThe Elohist and Jahwist argument isn't about what they called God, its about their tendency to show God specifically favoring their tribe\tribes over the other.
ReplyDeleteThe Zoroastrian influence is obvious. The religion changed. Apocalyptic themes began to appear, messiahnic themes began to appear, dualism was more evident.
The Bible does have historical events that did happen. So what? So does the Book of Mormon. Most existing text today was written well after Jesus lived so it would be easy to be accurate on actual physical historical events.
You did not discredit the 2 Sam and 1 Chronicle argument. The numbers are off. The more you try to create theories by reading between lines it creates confusion and you can draw any conclusion.
2 Samuel 24:9 (KJV)"And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men."
1 Chronicles 21:5(KJV)"And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword."
Don't get it twisted, they were talking about the same event. And in fact, these accounts are even more off because in the Chron account, Joab didn't count Benjamin and Levi (their tribes). One of them has Satan inciting David to do this census and the other has God.
On ToeJamm's argument that the Bible is Mallable: "the changing of the new testament in order to compete with other religions(New Testament writers may have drawn their 'Divine Man themes' of Jesus in order to compete with Greco-Roman Mystery Religions from the Hellenization of the Middle East),"
ReplyDeleteThis argument does not make sense to me. The concept of the Messiah or Jesus was present all through out the old testament in the form of many prophecy. The New Testament concept of Jesus is the same as that of the Old Testament and aligns with this OT concept. So how could the NT concept of Jesus which is the same as that of the OT have been molded to the more modern, to the OT, religions of the Romans? Could you elaborate on this more? How was the concept of Jesus changed to meet the Roman religions? Is the NT concept of Jesus not the same as that of the OT?
I think you failed to read what was actually stated. The two books are told from different perspectives. This is not merely "reading between the lines" but properly analyzing the Bible like you would a piece of literature. The two numberings are told from different perspectives and this is reflected in how the numbers are arrived at. Yes the same event is being discussed but with different methods of counting to reflect the different perspectives. So the two counting are accurate with regard to their respective counting methods. You are using common story telling devices to discredit the Bible. How does this discredit the Bible? Why is acceptable for a normal piece of literature to use these devices and not the Bible?
ReplyDeleteOn Satan and God inciting David to count, 2 Sam 24:6, "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.'" When reading this you need to be aware of figures of speech such as Hebrew Idioms, there are a lot of them and you can't understand what is actually said until you understand these. "He moved" means that God suffered or allowed David to be moved. "By Hebrew idiom (and modern usage) a person is said to do that which he permits to be done. Here we have the historical fact. In 1 Chron 21:1 we have the real fact from the Divine standpoint."
"Enders Game" has two version of the story both written by the same author but told from the perspectives of two different characters. Does that mean that Card did not write both novels? Is he lying?
It is Malleable because this "Divine Man" argument suggests that the Gospels either drew or created the powerful son of God from the pre existing divine man religions from Greece and Rome. Malleable:adaptable or tractable.
ReplyDeleteMessianic themes did not always have a Divine son of God restoring the throne. The Davidic covenant just had a man in David's lineage reestoring God's promise. The Messiah wasn't always supposed to be able to walk on water or do miraculous healing.
In this case of the counting of the Army ( did not want to go in to such great extent on such a triviality) it is talking about one event from one perspective of one man. The mix up of numbers just goes to show how piecemeal the Bible was put together. Like an elementary telephone game. Its like the Gospels constantly drawing their writings not from first hand experience with Jesus but with stories about his life. Things are easily mixed up. Hardly accurate. Not the word of God. Creation of pure humans.
ReplyDeleteBTW...Nameless Cynic and I are now Facebook friends.
ReplyDeleteYou dare me? What's that all about?
ReplyDeleteIt was a joke at the fact that I am going so hard against the normal theme of this blog.
ReplyDeleteWhen I said "you" I did not mean Bud-D but any contributor who is reading.
ReplyDeleteAll of your arguments make no sense and you completely take what the Bible says out of context. "There is a continual running confession of inability to understand the Hebrew text[among scholars and critics]. Like the schoolboy who always thinks 'the book is wrong', modern critics never seem to suspect that the difficulty lies with themselves and not with ' the book'." You are randomly picking and choosing quotes and taking them out of context and using YOUR incomplete understanding to discredit the Bible. The problem is your understanding and not the Bible in the matters you bring up. There are far legitimate points to be made about the veracity of the Bible not these arguments.
ReplyDeleteThe point made about the numbering will stand for anyone who reads it and understands it. There is no "mix up" of numbers. Both numbers are correct as they are both different numberings of the same group. One includes only the valiant men and the other includes all of the fighting men. This is a very pedantic point. The contradiction is in your mind.
You are incorrect in your Divine Man argument. The Messiah was supposed to restore the throne of David according to the old testament. Isaiah 9:6-7 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counnseller, The mighty God The everlasting Father, The prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever..." There are also passages stating that he would do miracles. So your argument does not stand.
Read the Bible and understand what it says. Don't go off of some school textbook. Mine say that America is bad and Keynesian economics is the way to go. Your arguments are weak and disappointing. There are far better ones out there. Not these.
And on the Messiah there are two advents presented in the OT. You need to be able to tell the differences to understand it.
ReplyDeleteInteresting conversation, though discussion of religion is a very sensitive topic and not what we normally discuss here. Both of you guys are impressing me with your understanding of the structure of the Bible (whether you are correct or not in what you say is another question :) ). I'll add my not-so-learned response once I get my computer at home back up and running.
ReplyDeleteI dont have a school text book. I have stated facts. I have drawn these conclusions on my own. My teacher is a follower of a religion. I am not. I did not take anyone elses side. I do like what Paine said though.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with discussing religion is that I am talking to people who believe in the Bible before they read it. Lots of times a Christian will defend the Bible by quoting it. When someone has this kind of faith then to argue with them is pointless. The Christian could be right but has no objective way of proving it.
The same argument could be made against you. You don't believe the Bible so you will believe anything that claims to disprove it. This is a pointless argument that goes both ways. It is like two people saying to each other "no you did" "no you did" back and forth. You DID have a school textbook and you DID get these points from your class. You DID not arrive at these fact or questions on your own as you say. That is a LIE. And below you. I get my information from the Church I study with and verify it own my own. You should do the same with your class. What religion is your teacher? Why does he not say what it is? Religions are of man. Reality is the way to go.
ReplyDeleteGo back and read those two verses. If you can't see the difference then you are simply ignoring facts because of preconceived notions. Two different perspectives. Two different numberings. There are many ways to count an army or people. You can count fighting men or supporting men. Or in the case of the verses, you can count for Israel valiant men or all fighting men or for Judah just fighting men or all men. One person can count an army in different ways by grouping them. At work the total count for workers are divided into different groups: cashiers, stockers, sales people, maintaince etc.. The total count could be 20 but saying that there are 5 stockers and 6 sales people, 9 maintiance people would be correct. This is very basic stuff. The actual text or primary source with perspective and point of view in mind is being used to OBJECTIVELY make a point.
On God provoking the counting. This is a baseless argument. Read what was said. Two book same story different perspectives. When something bad happens in people's life they often blame God. When a great natural or any disaster happens, it is often attributed to God by saying it was an act of God or the wrath of God even thought this had nothing to do with it. It was simply nature.
There are better arguments to be made and questions I would like answered. Who canonnized the Bible and where did the manuscripts come from? Where did our modern day Bible come from? Your arguments or disappointing. Of all the more crediable arguments against the Bible why does your class use such baseless arguments? Hold whatever beliefs you want but don't use baseless arguments to attack something you view as ignorant and stupid because of your lack of understanding. The problems you present are due to your Ignorance and incomplete understanding. Are there issues the the Bible, yes.
Your textbook "Understanding the Bible" by Stephen L. Harris is basically communist, to use an oversimplification of all that we hate here on the blog. It is part of the Marxist and socialist disease in our colleges. I looked up the book on Amazon and I found that the author belongs to the Jesus Seminar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
ReplyDeleteThis organization is very interesting as it teaches that the gospels of the NT taught a social gospel which is related to progressive political movement,check the link out. "a late 19th and early 20th century Protestant Christian intellectual and social movement which applied progressive Christian ethics to dealing with social issues." President Obama's new pastor teaches this and this is basically a Marxist view that wealth needs to be redistributed. This is a Christian version of Marxism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W9-N7xCQQ0&feature=related
So this author belongs to an organization that supports a Marxist view of the gospels. Harris also belongs to the Westar institute which promotes Liberal Christianity. One of its notable member, Karen Armstrong, is anti Jewish and pro Islamic terriorist.
The main point is that this textbook is also a form of Higher Criticism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism
Check out the history section and see where this came from. "Higher criticism originally referred to the work of German biblical scholars of the Tübingen School." Check the link. Check out Hegel's influence. Who was this man? "...one of the creators of German Idealism. His historicist and idealist account of reality as a whole revolutionized European philosophy and was an important precursor to Continental philosophy and [MARXISM]." I have yet to check out the other founders. But one is Kant. This guy and Hegel led to the foundations of modern day toltarianism, read "The Closing of The American Mind" by Alan Bloom.
This is a basic, quick look at where you are getting your information. You should do this too lest you get taken in by some Al Gore-like organization. This does not automatically discredit the arguments presented in the book or the arguments of the Higher critics, an interesting field of study, by itself. But it does shed some light as to where it came from. I could only find old books on higher criticism. http://www.archive.org/stream/highercriticism00saycuoft#page/25/mode/1up
Check out the 1st chapter.
Your argument that I'm regurgitating everything that I learn in my class is getting old. I hardly ever read the textbook when I had it. I'm almost positive that I'm the only one in my class that came up with these conclusions. Telling me to study on my own is laughable. I've done my research. Stop trying to discredit my intelligence. Show some civility when getting in to a discussion of this kind. I think we are all adults here.
ReplyDeleteYou discredit your own intelligence. Anyways, your intelligence compared to mine will automatically make yours appear inferior.
ReplyDeleteI am glad you brought up this topic. I have really studied a lot about this subject of higher criticism and some of its arguments. Most of the earlier arguments had lots of problems and logical fallicies. Mainly arguing from a single instance. And a lot of their theories were later discredited by archeological evidence. Higher Criticism does have communist roots and did have other motives other than the seeking of truth. And the author of your textbook does belong to some very questionable organizations--Jew haters and terrorist lovers to over simplify. Check it out. I plan to do a very detalied post on the subject sometime.
I believe there are questions to the Bible. Just not the Higher criticism approach. And why do they use such baseless arguments?
Until you say anything with substance your arguments will only appear as pitiful whining. All you have are empty accusations. I'll wait for your post though. Hopefully it has something to back it up. I have no logical fallacies so far and if I did then you have said nothing to unearth them. Is quoting your bible verbatim wrong?
ReplyDeleteYou did quote the Bible accurately. Good job! All you have to do is to be able to read what it says. (Remember the two books tells the same thing but from two different perspectives.) 2 Samuel 24:9 (KJV)"And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand [VALIENT VALIENT in CHRON IT SAYS ONLY MEN THAT DREW THE SWORD SO THERE IS NO LIMITING ADJECTIVE] men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men."
ReplyDelete1 Chronicles 21:5(KJV)"And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword[THAT DREW THE SWORD NOT NECESSARILY VALIENT MEN AS STATED IN SAM]: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword[THAT DREW THE SWORD. IN SAM IT SAYS ALL THE MEN OF JUDAH]."
Two different things. I would really like a third party to see if I am the one that am confused on this contradiction. Am I crazy? Am I not accurate in what I said? It was explained throughly in the comments.
I gave you some links to check out who were the founders of Higher Criticism. A couple of them influenced Karl Marx: Ludwig Andreas Feuerbach. Check out the early founders on Higher criticism and see what the men believed that started this study of the Bible and check out the philosophical themes were of the time period that this started. Kant: In Kant, "we find a philosophy that challenges our objective knowledge."; David Hume: "In his Enquiries concerning Human Understanding, he says, for example, that our knowledge of cause and effect, the basis of science, is not founded on demonstrative knowledge. He says that our minds constitute and shape the world around us."http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/03/the_origins_of_postmodernism.html ; Benedict Spinoza believed "All rights are derived from the State". http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza-political/#BasFeaSpiPol
Do you own homework as to where you are getting you information. This is called studying the sources of your information. An important part of research and key in understanding what it is you are researching. This is what the Higher Critics said that they did. I gave you substance. Just because you are too lazy to check it out yourself doesn't mean that I am not stating anything of substance.
The Jawist and ELohist theory is just that. A hypothesis--not fact. I found this my researching a little. These quotes and links are from a very basic research and not complete. Just skimming the surface. Also check out the author of you textbook.
If you don't see the point in the sam and chron then, I want to know if I am crazy. It seems very basic to me. It is not a contradiction and not proof positive of the divine authorship or influence of the Bible, but it is an explanition.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely crazy.
ReplyDelete