Picture a thirteen-year old boy sitting in the living room of his family home doing his math assignment while wearing his Walkman headphones or watching MTV. He enjoys the liberties hard won over centuries by the alliance of philosophic genius and political heroism, consecrated by the blood of martyrs; he is provided with comfort and leisure by the most productive economy ever know to mankind; science has penetrated the secrets of nature in order to provide him with the marvelous, lifelike electronic sound and image reproduction he is enjoying. And in what does progress culminate? A pubescent child whose body throbs with orgasmic rhythms; whose feelings are made articulate in hymns to the joys of onanism[ withdrawl of the penis in sexual intercourse so that ejaculation takes place outside the vagina; coitus].or the killing of parents; whose ambition is to win fame and wealth in imitating the drag-queen who makes the music. In short, life is made into a nonstop, commercially prepackaged masturbational fantasy.Is there any connection between the deterioration of our culture and and the deterioration of our nation? I think the two are very closely connected on a very deep and fundamental level. This is why complaining about the current state of our nation and the world is pointless as it does not address the root cause: the deterioration of our culture. Unless the American culture is changed on a very deep and fundamental level the direction we are traveling won't change. (On a more serious subject of our nation's finances, "Nominal debt will peak in 2013 at 106 percent of the economy before dropping to 105.2 percent in 2015 and 2016, though only if the economy booms." The Republicans are not doing anything but talking, and being deceptive, about addressing the very serious situation our nation's economy is in.)
Tuesday, February 15, 2011
The Devolution Of America's Society.
Compare the three music videos below to see the devolution of our society being manifested. It began with Elvis shaking his hips and has led to simulated sex music videos of today and rock stars jumping around on stage in disjointed and contorted manner. Our grandparents were in an uproar over Elvis and his shaking hips and said that it would lead to far worse. Notice how the music in the Spears video mimics the beat and rhythm of sexual intercourse. I like Allan Bloom's observation in his book "The Closing Of The American Mind" on music in American culture:
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I'm not sure what to think of all this. I'm not saying that I havent critically thought about it, which I have, but I haven't reached any conclusion.
ReplyDeleteI do see pop media as having very bad morals/values. Is this a product of a society with bad morals or is it a mechanism that is pushing our society off a cliff? Or both? Or is it neither and its just a natural part of the human psychological cycle that has been occuring since the beginning of recorded history?
When looking at our values today and values of yesterday (metaphorically) I'm not sure we are any worse or better. Certainly we are different, but I don't know if bad sexual morals today are worse then the open prostitution in Classical Greece at Corinth. Some people argue that original sin is based on sex and that all sin sort of derives from it.
I will definitely agree that I am disgusted with the sexuality in pop culture.
I think there is a connection between the deterioration of a society's culture and the deterioration of the society as a whole. Some might say that is confusing correlation with causation, but look at history to see that such a fallacy is not being committed.
ReplyDeleteThere has always been people that are promiscuous, do drugs, murder, and all other things considered unacceptable by society. Why are such things considered unacceptable? Because society can not exist with out some restraint, usually called morals, on the individual's action. One founding father of America stated that our Constitution was not made for a people that are not moral. To say that there have always been people like that mentioned above and that this points to the fact that our present society is acceptable misses a point. When a society begins to accept and promote such behavior, that society is on the decline because they have lost the restraining force called morals or whatever else on individual's actions. When morals are removed, a powerful government must step in a fill the void left by the departure of morals. Such a society can't last. The point is that society is promoting and accepting such behavior and is doing this through culture.
I don't agree with the concept original sin. Sin is a simple word that has religious connotation. The concept of sin is far more complex and deep that what the connotations associated with it imply. All people break fundamental laws of reality on their own, not because of some original sin that entered the world through two people. Sex is good in the proper context. But individuals needs a restraining force or a morals code to prevent it from becoming something bad. Sex is very costly in terms of our health and the cost required to raise our offspring. Having promiscuous sex leads to disease and is very costly, in terms of the resources needed to take care of it, offspring. In a more primitive natural existence, the death that results from disease and the limitations of natural resources that can be gathered and provided for their young is usually the restraining factor. If they have too many kids, the kids will be killed or the parents along with it. In modern society, this consequence is delayed for a long time and transferred to society as a whole.
The issue is complex and can't be fully discussed through such a medium. But changes need to occur to our society's culture to change the road called the road to serfdom or despotism we are on. If people don't want to restrain themselves, then a larger entity called government will have to.
I think we are all in agreement that the commercially packaged pop culture we get now is not good for the health of our country. But, people have been saying exactly the same thing since even far before Elvis' time: flappers in the '20's listening to evil Jazz and going to speakeasies? Those were the parents of the so-called 'greatest generation'.
ReplyDeleteAlcohol consumption was generally far higher back then than now (not specifically during Prohibition, but say pre-80's, going back as far as you want in time). Nicotine consumption...ditto
Teen pregnancy rates have never been lower in recorded history than they are now. I'll bet VD rates are very low relative to past eras too, but don't know.
So, many of the effects of poor moral behavior were worse in the past than they are now.
I think much of what you say is made to look worse than it is in that book, especially reading the passage you post, though I don't deny that it is a problem.
People always tend to look at the past as a golden age. It usually wasn't.
The one traditional American value that has tragically fallen it seems to me is Self-Reliance. Which this blog often speaks of in the form of problems with Big Government.
I guess the other crucial problem that we have now is the collapse of the tradional family. That is a problem but again, how is it showing up in effects? Crime is way down too from it's peak in the '70's.
So, to repeat myself, we have these things happening that seem bad, but when you look at what should be the results of these bad things: Crime, drug/alcohol/nicotine abuse, teen pregnancy, it's getting better rather than getting worse. Even in spite of the Obama-cession.
Our religious traditions try and hold us to a golden standard, as they should. We never have been able to live up to those standards. We just need to keep trying.
Also, very cool Elvis video!
ReplyDeleteBoth of you summed up my views fairly well.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to think that we (we, as in every American) have worse morals\values then any civilization at any time in human history. I'm not even convinced that we have worse morals then we did in 1776. I do see a correlation with our music\pop media and the devolution of society, but I think their are things that we have advanced that can balance these effects out(grammatically bad sentence, I know). One example would be the judicial system.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/ten-controversial-court-cases7.htm
"their" should be "there" in my previous post.
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ReplyDeleteI agree with most of what you say. There has never been any golden age. The 1920's and it excesses lead up to the great depression.
ReplyDelete"Teen pregnancy rates have never been lower in recorded history than they are now." I would like to know where you got this from. This flies in the face of government statics and every thing that I have read. I personally see a lot of teens with kids. Back in the 1700's or well before that, there certainly was a lot of teen pregency because people lived much shorter life spans. So a teen back then was equal to an adult of today.
Bud-D "So, many of the effects of poor moral behavior were worse in the past than they are now. " This is true of the physical effects because of drugs and condoms. But "poor moral behavior" is now far more widespread and is promoted and accepted by society as a whole and the bad effects on society have not been made less worse.
Bud-d, "I guess the other crucial problem that we have now is the collapse of the tradional family. That is a problem but again, how is it showing up in effects? Crime is way down too from it's peak in the '70's." The crime rate in the 70's is not the proper baseline to judge if crime is down as a whole. That baseline was unusually high and not the normal. The collapse of the traditional family shows up by the fact that a generation of kids are growing up without a two parent home. Statistics shows that kids that grow up in these conditions are more likely to be high school drops out and delinquents and criminals. Take a look at your the average teenager. Karl Marx realized that the tradional family needed to be destroyed for the collapse of the capitalist system to occur and that is why communist promote this.
What we call morals have always been bad, but the point is that society is promoting and accepting it. When that point is reached, the society is on the decline.
Toejamm, "It is hard to think that we (we, as in every American) have worse morals\values then any civilization at any time in human history." That is true to some extent, but does this fact make this situation acceptable in the present? And what was the conditions of those civilizations that had bad "morals"? This argument is like saying "you are bad and I am bad so all is ok".
Toejamn, "I'm not even convinced that we have worse morals then we did in 1776." I think the society as a whole back then had a lot more morals then the society of today. Read "Democracy In America" by Toqueville. What he says disagrees with you. Today's society would not have led to the creation of America.
Is is a just chance that as a society degrades into tyranny its morals also do the same? We all are bad, always have been, and it is ok for us to continue to be bad. He does drugs, so it is ok for me to be drugs. That sums up both of your arguments, although through a simple analogy.
http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/upcoming.php?event_id=452
ReplyDeleteHere's a start. I'll round up more links, hopefully with clearer presentations. This article dwells on the historically low rates in California, but does mention in passing that rates have been dropping nation-wide over the decades, and of course California by itself is a big indicator of general trends.
In fact, I have stated in past articles that the shocking drop in teen pregnancies, though not bad in and of itself, is actually an indicator of the demographic problems building in the US and world, which contribute directly to the collapse of government Ponzi-scheme entitlement programs, ie drop in teenage pregnancy rates goes along with drops in general pregnancy rates. You can argue that the collapse of these schemes is not a bad thing, but whether good or bad, demographics is causing the collapse.
In fact, some (in my mind, mistaken) people will say that the huge drops in birth rates among women in the US and elsewhere is a sign of good morals of the culture.
I'm not completely discounting what you're saying Jeff. It needs to be said. Your Marx quote is good and applicable.
There you go again Jeff. Putting words in our mouthes. You have a quality that is detrimental to civilized conversation by putting words or intents in other people's mouths. The intent that you add to my statements alters me and my character very drastically. For you to say that I am implying, "We all are bad, always have been, and it is ok for us to continue to be bad." Is far from what I ever said.
ReplyDeleteTry reading what I said literally. I only said that I don't think that our moral/value system has gotten any better or worse. I never "ok'd" any sin.
If my "balance these effects out" statement confused you, I meant that our faults of today might not be any worse then of yesterday. Nothing is "tipping the scale" and making one era any worse.
I am asking you to please be more careful when quoting me. Make sure you comprehend my meaning and apply it to the context of the conversation. You misquote me all the time. I will also try to clarify a little better.
• The teenage birthrate in 2006 was 41.9 births per 1,000 women. This was 32% lower than the
ReplyDeletepeak rate of 61.8, reached in 1991, but 4% higher than in 2005.
• Between 1988 and 2000, teenage pregnancy rates declined in every state, and between 2000
and 2005, they fell in every state except North Dakota. (State data are not yet available for 2006.)
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf
From your article Bud-D I found this, "But in recent years, as the pregnancies of political daughters and TV stars have brought broad attention to the subject once more, teen pregnancy rates have started rising everywhere except California, which has pursued robust state-supported teen pregnancy prevention efforts." Is this not saying that teen pregnancies are up in the nation but down in California? From Toejamm source, it does appear that birth rates are declining among teens.
ReplyDeleteAnd on your demographic problem, this is called the demographic transition. As a nations becomes wealthier and more developed, the birth rates naturally decline. I don't think it has anything to do with morals. I found that in the history "Modern Times".
Toejamm, I was not trying to put words in your mouth. I was giving an analogy of how I viewed your viewpoint. I agree that our faults are not any worse today than they were yesterday--depending on what yesterday is, but that does not change the main point I was making: that as a society's culture declines, the overall nation declines.
And this post does not sum up the main argument or point of the book being quoted. A nations culture and the state of that society are linked.
Yes Jeff, you're right that there has been a slight bump up in the last couple of years, but the general trend over the decades is down, and way down. The point of your article and your references ought to indicate that the general trend is exactly the opposite. Both ToeJamm's and my article refute the notion that lax morals are causing social problems, at least in the specific case of teenage pregnancies. This is one sexual conduct battle that appears to have been won. The rates are still historically low (ie 20006 was lowest ever (I'm winging it, may have been another year), and the rate has bumped up slightly since then but is still lower than 1996, 1986, 1976,...1886,...) and I would bet the bump up is due entirely to the influx of illegal immigrants coming from societies that still value large families (and early pregnancies for women).
ReplyDeleteRegarding 'demographic transition', there's nothing natural about it. Historically, wealthier people had more babies, not less, because they could afford to keep the babies they had alive (see stories saying how most Europeans are related to Charlemagne for example). It is only in very recent times that the correlation of wealthier/more children has been reversed. And this isn't due to lax morals or strict morals, it is due entirely to birth control.
I should have said "the bump up is due entirely to the influx of IMMIGRANTS' as opposed to "illegal immigrants". Most societies sending immigrants to the US value large families, whether the immigrants are illegal or legal.
ReplyDeleteBud-D, "Regarding 'demographic transition', there's nothing natural about it. Historically, wealthier people had more babies, not less, because they could afford to keep the babies they had alive (see stories saying how most Europeans are related to Charlemagne for example). It is only in very recent times that the correlation of wealthier/more children has been reversed. And this isn't due to lax morals or strict morals, it is due entirely to birth control." I disagree with this. If the history book I read is correct, then what you say is not entirely true: birth rates are not solely declining because of condoms use. It is that as people become wealthier, they chose to have less babies. It is a fact that as a nation becomes wealthier the birthrates decline. Yes historically this has been the opposite, because of the high death rate and the fact that people had to have more kids to carry the family name or crown on or to work the fields. This is the "Modern Times.": A different paradigm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition
ReplyDeleteBud-D, "Both ToeJamm's and my article refute the notion that lax morals are causing social problems, at least in the specific case of teenage pregnancies." I would agree to some degree with that point. They are down, but down from what baseline?
The main point of the post that I tried to get across and the much broader point of the book is that a society's culture and the direction that society is headed are linked. When a society values and glorifies sex, drugs, and "loose morals", morals is a bad and over simplified word, that society is on the downfall. History makes that clear. My history "Modern Times" book points this out in relation to the Weimar Republic by noting its culture. "In the Weltbuhne, the smartest and most telling of the new journals, sexual freedom and pacifism were exalted, the army, the state, the university, the Church and,above all, the comfortable, industrious middle classes, were savaged and ridiculed." "Plays, novels and even paintings touched on themes as homosexuality, sadomasochism, transvestism and incest; and it was in Germany that Freud's writings were most fully absorbed by the intelligentsia and penetrated the widest range of artistic expression." What are the ideals present in pop culture of today?
I think you both are misreading what my argument is. This post only presents one little aspect of a much broader point. It is not simply saying that sex is bad and morally wrong and because this is prevelant in our society, America will be punished by God: it is not some moralist complaining about lack of morals in our society. It is much deeper and broader. I did not want to write a 30 page report, so I presented a simple post. But look at pop culture, to see the decay of our society. The videos above point this out. Not simply because Spears is naked or shaking her body. It represents a decay of our society. A society that is only thinking sex is not thinking about more important things that are necessary to preserve a free nation.
What and whose ideals are present in pop culture? Philosophers of the past couple hundred years had a stated goal of overturning our society and creating a new system by destroying its culture, they spread their ideals through culture. Look at Marx for 1 ex. Read "The Closing of The American Mind", "The Romantic Manifesto", and the history of societies to get the main and much deeper point being made.
Actually today, poorer nations and people have higher birth rates.
ReplyDeleteI think I do understand what you are trying to get by. "It is much deeper and broader."
ReplyDeleteWhat my, and maybe Bud-D's argument is, is that our morals haven't gotten any worse on a macro psychological level. I think there are isolated sub groups of our culture that have devolved but there are some that have evolved. Based on the examples you have given, I'm not close to being convinced that our morals are devolving.
Allan Bloom seems to be a very smart man and a lot of his arguments are compelling. But he does use a lot of snarky dialogue that discredits him as a scientist. He tends to come off as a bitter old man sometimes.
"The only common project engaging the youthful imagination is the exploration of space, which everyone knows to be empty."(Bloom, Closing Of The American Mind).
Correct me if I'm wrong, is he down playing the importance of space travel? Is he saying that modern kids shouldn't be worried about learning about space? Sorry Allan if the West Coast was still a frontier when you were a child, but today the final frontier is space (or cyberspace, or nano space).
He makes a lot of comments like this one that make me wonder if this is some personal vendetta he has against these darn young kids with their loud music.
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ReplyDeleteThe term "morals" misses about 90% of what the point trying to be made. Maybe I can't communicate well or I am assuming that the point trying to be made is as clear to others as it is to mean. So I need to learn to communicate better. But yes, our "morals" are declining from what made a free nation possible and substained it for these past 200 years. Are they devolving from thousands of years ago or others times, no.
ReplyDeleteThe book is his observations on American culture as viewed through his years as a teacher, mostly in college, in the education system.
Since you didn't give a page number with that quote above I can't look it up and put it in context. But if I remember correctly, the comment is meant as satire. A common device to illustrate absurdity is to be absurd. But that is beyond most people heads as they miss it.
Yeah, I didn't present my main point well and did not intend to. The point the author is making is much deeper. That comes out with reading the rest of the book. You seem like you are stuck on the simple level of "He makes a lot of comments like this one that make me wonder if this is some personal vendetta he has against these darn young kids with their loud music." If all you are only thinking on that level of morals and sex and bad Mr. Bloom hates loud music and sex, then the main point of the book is not going to be picked up by you. If this is the case, don't read the rest of the book as you will waste your time. Hopefully, at least you saw a different perspective and were made to think a little. Not everybody thinks on the same level.
I am seeing a different perspective and I'm not sure that anything that I have said implies that I am not understanding it at the same level you are.
ReplyDeleteMy impression is that you understand and agree with this man and his ideas and therefore everything he has to say is absolute. So when we debate the book, you resort to saying that we don't understand it.
I understand the point he is trying to make. I agree on a lot of points. But he does come off as bitter and this could play a serious bias on his inquiry.
It was pg 86
I understand that jumping into a dead thread with my own opinion is pretty lame, but I wanted to float a notion.
ReplyDeleteMorality is dictated by culture, and culture is produced by humans, who are always changing. From a Culturally Relative perspective there is no way to say one culture is better than another, nor is there any way to dictate who has better morals.
So in essence the point I want to get across is that while there is a climate in "mainstream" society I find particularly tasteless and take great care to avoid myself; I am reticent to say that it is "Immoral." All I can say with confidence is that the values of the "mainstream" contrast sharply with my own.
Then again I do take a guilty pleasure in filling's my own voyeuristic vices by watching MTV from time to time.
I can agree with you on some of your statements, but only if we look at culture from a "relative perspective". But to a person of faith, there are truths. There are rights and wrongs. There are morals. The Bible is filled with them. So, from a Christian standpoint, I would disagree with your entire statement. From a hippie/everything's relative/open to everybody standpoint, you are a toatally right.
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